Ah, this long anticipated family battle has finally arrived. Methodist Meltdown, Fratricide-apalooza, whatever you choose to call it, today's match-up will be epic. While they share a Collect, today the sibling rivalry will be bitter. A fitting end to the Round of 32 as tomorrow we kick off the Round of the Saintly Sixteen.
Yesterday, despite his impressive name, Samuel Isaac Joseph Schereschewsky lost to Harriet Bedell 63% to 37%. While he will be missed, those responsible for updating their church's poster-sized brackets will rejoice. Harriet will go on to face Thomas Gallaudet in the next round.
We recently heard a rumor that there are still some people who have not liked us on Facebook or followed us on Twitter. That seems impossible. In any case, it's time to vote between a heart "strangely warmed" and a "strange palpitation of the heart." If you find your own heart beating too fast with this heart-thumping saintly action, please call your cardiologist. The Supreme Executive Committee is of limited help in such matters of the heart.
John Wesley
It may not be completely fair to call John Wesley an overachiever, but he provides good reasons for making that case. An excellent student, John attended Christ Church, Oxford, where he and his brother Charles established the Holy Club. They were mockingly called the Methodists because they were so methodical about church attendance, Bible study, prayer, and service to the poor.
After they were ordained as Anglican priests, the Wesleys went to the primitive colony of Georgia where they failed to impress anyone, and John managed to get sued for breach of contract by his sort-of former fiancée. John came back to England utterly downcast.
While in the New World, John had become friends with Moravian missionaries. It was while attending a Moravian service in Aldersgate that John felt his heart “strangely warmed,” and he gained a new understanding of God’s grace. It is out of this Aldersgate experience that John rebooted his ministry.
He used his remarkable organizational skills to establish Methodist societies within the Church of England, though he was barred from preaching in most churches due to his evangelistic methods. He often traveled more than 4,000 miles a year–250,000 miles during his lifetime. He preached over 40,000 sermons, mostly in the open air to working class people. He published 233 books, receiving over £30,000 in royalties, most of which he gave to charity, including funds to establish the Kingswood School in Bristol.
Although he remained an Anglican priest throughout his life and did not intend to found a new denomination, his ordination of two lay preachers set the stage for the split of Methodism from the established Church of England.
He continued preaching until days before his death at age 88 in 1791.
Collect for John Wesley
Lord God, who inspired your servant John Wesley with burning zeal for the sanctification of souls, and endowed him with eloquence in speech and song: Kindle in your Church, we entreat you, such fervor, that those whose faith has cooled may be warmed, and those who have not known Christ may turn to him and be saved; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.
Charles Wesley
Charles Wesley was the younger of the famed Wesley Brothers, whose Methodist revival changed the shape of religion in eighteenth-century England. Charles was among the greatest hymn writers of all time, with over 6,000 hymns written during his ministry. Among his texts are such beloved hymns as “O For a Thousand Tongues to Sing,” “Love Divine, All Loves Excelling,” “Come Thou Long Expected Jesus,” “Lo! He Comes with Clouds Descending,” and “Hark! The Herald Angels Sing.” While often eclipsed by his elder brother, Charles Wesley was described by those who knew him as a “man made for friendship.”
Charles attended Christ Church, Oxford, where he and John gathered with close friends for regular communion, religious study, and prayer. Because of the group’s fastidious and structured habits, they were snidely called “Methodists” by their peers; the name stuck. Anyway, Charles was ordained in 1735 before going to serve as a missionary in the colony of Georgia, where he would preach and minister while also serving as the secretary to the colony’s governor. Charles found life in Georgia difficult and was often caught in the crossfire of his parishioners’ feuds; he returned to England after three years.
Charles experienced an inner conversion on Pentecost Sunday, May 21, 1738, at the home of the English Moravian John Bray. He described it as a “strange palpitation of the heart,” in which he gained the confidence and assurance of Jesus’ great love for him. His brother John’s famous Aldersgate experience would come three days later. The brothers would then go on to preach and proclaim that experience to all in England, especially in fields, factories, and under-churched populations.
As Methodism grew and experienced pressure from within to separate from the Church of England, Charles Wesley remained fiercely committed to avoiding schism from the church, which he lovingly called “the old ship.” Charles consistently and vehemently opposed any steps his brother John took which he saw as possibly leading to schism. Charles was not informed of John’s ordinations of Asbury and Coke in 1784 until after the fact, primarily to prevent him from intervening. On his deathbed, he wrote to the local vicar, saying: “Sir, whatever the world may say of me, I have lived, and I die, a member of the Church of England. I pray you to bury me in your churchyard.”
Collect for Charles Wesley
Lord God, who inspired your servant Charles Wesley with burning zeal for the sanctification of souls, and endowed them with eloquence in speech and song: Kindle in your Church, we entreat you, such fervor, that those whose faith has cooled may be warmed, and those who have not known Christ may turn to him and be saved; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.
-- David Sibley
Vote!
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221 comments on “John Wesley vs. Charles Wesley”
My brother is a Methodist pastor and it is throu through him I came to know the brothers. I have to remark on the comments about John looking so severe. That man was the circuit rider of all circuit riders. He covered thousands of miles bringing the gospel to the people on horseback in every kind of weather. I'll have to go with the big brother even though it was the little brother who was the more gentle in spirit.
No way that I can vote against the "man made for friendship." That's what faith is all about. To do so would be to invite schism between me and God. Charles it is.
I'm a life long Methodist - I even have a John Wesley bobblehead doll.
While Charles was a great and prolific hymn writer, I do love John's “Do all the good you can. By all the means you can. In all the ways you can. In all the places you can. At all the times you can. To all the people you can. As long as ever you can.”
I was not familiar with the quote that you mentioned, " Do all the good". . .... and I found it particularly moving. Thank you
Why didn't you pick someone to write John Wesley's bio who at least liked him or empathized with him? Wesley inspired millions to live like Christ. So frustrating to have such a saint and a churchman disregarded at a time in which we are seeking inspiration for living our lives more like Christ. He threw all the power of Methodism behind Wilberforce and anti-slavery. Author leaves out all the amazing social justice work that Wesley led the Methodists to campaign for, sacrifice for, and shame the Anglican church at the time who were neglecting the urban masses that Wesley reached. He did not seek to be a schismatic. He was intensely persecuted for reaching out to the poor on their turf, outdoors. Remember, the rich locked their pews and the poor could not pay pew rents.
You are very right! I voted for the hymns without reading the article. The writer treated him very shabbily! He only ordained ministers when the bishop of London ignored his ( and the colonists) pleas for a bishop. His choice let Methodism flow into the midwest and convert the people that needed a church . If I had checked the early results I would have supported John.
John Wesley did not ordain anyone. He sent Thomas Coke to America, who then ordained Francis Asbury.
Surprised by the landslide! I voted for Charles' hymns.
John authorized and licensed women to preach, dropped the word "obey" from the marriage rite, and said this in a sermon: "It has long passed for a maxim with many that 'women are only to be seen but not heard.' And accordingly many of them are brought up in such a manner as if they were only designed for agreeable playthings! No, it is the deepest unkindness; it is horrid cruelty; it is mere Turkish barbarity. And I know not how any women of sense and spirit can submit to it."
Also, biographical sketches about my 5th great uncle, Rev. Samuel Morton Wakefield (who by all accounts was a Pennsylvanian version of JW), claim that my 7th great grandmother converted under the preaching of John Wesley and became a preacher herself. I think that obligates me to choose John. 🙂
I had not heard that quote. Good for him!
Good suggestion. It also might assist the biographer to get the facts right. It was John that stayed in Georgia three years, not Charles.
Oh my, didn't know that before I voted! Well, what can you do, they were both fine boys but only one can advance. 😛
Fooey! This is NOT fair. But I voted for Charles, I've sung too many hymns not to.
Being a youngest child, who grew up Methodist, returned to the Mother Church who's youngest (of two) child grew up to be a Methodist Deacon you'd think I'd have to go with Charles, But since that youngest child of mine's name was John, I guess I make go for the elder of the two greats.
My favorite Christmas song is "Hark the Herald..." so I gotta go with Charles here, although his dear brother is just as worthy of a vote. Partial to a songwriter since I love his music.
Jack and Chuck, what horrible luck to have one of them gone. It might have been John but who's to know if they had a go, and they also had a brother named Joe.
I'm a Methodist church organist and have been for most of 43 years. I "must" vote for Charles. He would
haunt my organ if I didn't!
We've been wearied of late by schisms of late--or at least I've been wearied of late thereby--and whatever John thought he was doing, he was the occasion of a serious schism. Maybe I would have cut him more slack if I had recalled the words of the hymn we sing before every parish meeting: after all, to be "by schisms rent asunder, by heresies distressed" are notes of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. Then too I am more and more convinced that theology recapitulates hymnody, and more hearts have been "strangely warmed" by a hymn than by a preacher's voice or sunlight striking a copper pot. And the clincher: Charles's experience of God's grace came on my birthday!
Yes John. The fact that Charles was opposed to a schism with the Anglican Church, was a major reason I voted for him.
As a long time member of Episcopal Church choirs (65 plus years) my vote goes to Charles for the wonderful hymns he wrote, which I still sing.
Chari Avolio
As a life-long Moravian, I will vote for John but continue to sing Charles' hymn.
David Schattschneider
O for a thousand votes to win my dear hymn writer's praise...but I only voted once, honest!
Has anyone else noticed that in their respective portraits, John's hand is pointing down, while Charles's hand is (sort of) pointing up? Artistic coincidence or sign of temperment? While I love and respect John for his marvelous work, so many of Charles's hymn simply exude joy and the love of the Lord. It was hymns, at least as much as sermons, that brought me back to Christianity after many decades away. Not an easy choice, but a straightforward one for me.
Both John and Charles were faithful servants of God. They put all they had for the spreading of Christ's mission in the world! I am not really sure on how I should vote, because of the influences of both of them on Christianity through preaching and Hymns to the world and Methodism in particular! But if it were not because of John, there might not be Methodism today! So in this tight race, I vote for the spreading of the Scriptural Holiness in the world through the memorable universal Hymns and inspiring Sermons that turned the world upside down for good!
I love the fact that both brothers were so influenced by Moravians and that the revelation of God's grace and love won them over from their "works" mentality. Gotta go with Charles, "a man made for friendship" and the writer of so many great hymns, including my fave Christmas carol.
"Yes", to your comment Kathleen. I also love the Moravian influence on the brothers' spiritual life. In today's terms we might say that they were Born Again
As a Methodist, I feel pulled to John, but am interested in Charles contributions also. Good to learn more about the saints !
I am completely surprised by the voting! I daresay that if more United Methodists were voting John would win.
Easy. Write in-- "Susannah Wesley" 😉
John was not afraid to back up his ministry with action by choosing the Methodist. Both brothers appear to be of the same mind but this was the one difference I could see.
With all due respect to the Wesleys and the Methodists -- which I do, and very much so, as mentioned in my previous comment -- I've always thought that Methodists treated Susannah Wesley (at a slightly lesser and more Protestant way, of course!) like Roman Catholics treat the Virgin Mary. I've always wondered whether anyone has every written a paper on that subject.
Don't know if anyone has written a paper, but the topic has arisen in discussions in which I've particpated regarding Susanna's life, influence, and contribution to her sons' ministries.
I should rephrase an earlier comment regarding the birth order of Susanna's and Samuel's children. Of 19 children (10 lived to adulthood), John was 15th, Charles 18th. Samuel was the first-born and first son.
Yes, John's impact on the faith and on society far exceed those of Charles.
Just the story of his effect on Guiness is enough to blow your mind.
According to "Stars in a Dark World" (Fr. John-Julian, OJN) page 133, "...Bishop Samuel Seabury, the first Episcopal Bishop in America, wrote to Charles Wesley, offering to ordain clergy for the Methodist movement in America--but he was too late to stop John."
Perhaps if John had shown more patience...
But unlike Mother Mary, Susanna taught Bible studies in her home, even when her absent husband, Samuel, wrote to ask her to stop! She spent a lot of time developing the faith of her children and educating her large family.
Not quite a typo: they share a commemoration and therefore, a collect; "them" is correct, actually, and "him" is edited to separate them for this one instance.
I voted for Charles, too, for the beauty of his hymnody and the gentleness of his demeanor toward the staid old ship, even as he sought to transform it for God's sake. As I've heard somewhere, the Methodists left us Anglican types the grand fireplace, but took the fire. I don't actually believe that, even as an Episcopal graduate of a Methodist seminary, but it's been said....
One of my great hopes for the hereafter is that I stand somewhere near sweet Charles, "lost in wonder, love, and praise." Can't imagine anything more heavenly!
We sang it at our wedding, as we processed out. As always, I choked with joy on the last line...still do.
As a cradle Methodist with 13 bars of perfect Sunday School attendance, this was an interesting
match. I voted for Charles because John, as a priest, didn't have the authority to ordain anyone.
Not telling his brother Charles of his intent, also seems duplicitous, - not a good trait for a Saint :-).
So even though I was raised in Asbury Methodist Episcopal Church, I couldn't bring myself to vote for the man who ordained Asbury.
GAAAAAHHHHH but with that said, voting Charles for song and for devotion to the unity of the Church.
Having earned my M.Div. at Wesley Seminary, and having the statue of the circuit riding John Wesley on my class ring, there was no question for me. Because of the influence of his outspoken, independent mother Susanna, John empowered women in the church, including early Female Exhorters. A passionate Abolitionist, John often offended parishioners because their enslaved servants in the gallery above heard him preach for the end of slavery. When John survived a fire in the Epworth Rectory, Susanna said that he was a "brand plucked from the burning," and knew that he was destined for a special mission. John encouraged the people of the Methodist Societies to partake of the sacraments in the Church of England frequently. His Holy Club practices were much like the spiritual disciplines which the Episcopal Church encourages today, such as Morning and Evening Prayer. I love the poems written by Charles, but I think that John had the more thankless task. The preacher is far more often the target of conflict than is the music director! John was no more in favor of schism than was Charles. The Revolution caused the problem, when the clergy returned to England, leaving the people without baptism or Eucharist for several years. If the Scottish solution had been found sooner, there would probably have never been a split.
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While in the New World, John had become friends with Moravian missionaries. It was while attending a Moravian service in Aldersgate that John felt his heart “strangely warmed,” and he gained a new understanding of God’s grace.
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Sooo... We all should be Moravians? Gotcha!
I've been singing ever since I voted for Charles. Guess which hymn?
I started out in life as a Methodist preacher's daughter (a PK, we say), who grew up with great affection for the Wesley brothers & respect for the ministry of the two in reaching out to those on the margins who were not cared for by the CoE at the time. When I visited in London last year, I spent a delightful morning at Wesley Place, the cluster of buildings where the fledgling Methodist communities lived & worshiped & housed those who would otherwise have been homeless in the last years of John's life. What a memory trip of the history I had learned as a teen!
Because I love hymnody & many of Charles's hymns ("A Charge to Keep I Have" & "Hark! The Herald Angels Sing", etc), & because I appreciate apostolic succession (tho I don't take it literally), I was pulled to Charles, but then I remembered John's willingness to ordain clergy himself because he was adjusting to the needs of the current church, & my vote had to go with he who would have been more likely to throw in his leadership style with those who could meet the needs of the church community over "the way we've always done it." John was one of the first "emergent" leaders. My vote goes with him.
Because my favorite holiday is Easter, not Christmas, my favorite Charles Wesley hymn is "Jesus Christ Is Risen Today"!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT7dGcsrPkQ
I think the outcome of this vote is unfortunate and outrageous, particularly the margin of victory for Charles. The truth is most of Charles' original hymn tunes were failures and forgotten by history. And much of the theology in the hymns belonged to John. Charles' success was dependent upon John's success. You could have a Charles because of John but you could never have had a John because of Charles.
One correction: Charles did not compose tunes; he wrote poems which were set to the music of others.
I voted John. I'm a cradle Catholic who found the Episcopal church four years ago, so I can understand how hard it is to push back against a church that isn't working the way you feel it should. Besides, we really needed Methodists in the US.
I just checked in with other friends who are former United Methodists and are now Episcopalians. Here is what I had forgotten: John did do 2 presbyteral ordinations of Whatcoat and Vesey, in addition to consecrating Thomas Coke as General Superintendent. I also did not remember Charles' opposition to this. After being gone 5 years, I guess I'm beginning to forget the details of my Wesleyan history!