Ah, this long anticipated family battle has finally arrived. Methodist Meltdown, Fratricide-apalooza, whatever you choose to call it, today's match-up will be epic. While they share a Collect, today the sibling rivalry will be bitter. A fitting end to the Round of 32 as tomorrow we kick off the Round of the Saintly Sixteen.
Yesterday, despite his impressive name, Samuel Isaac Joseph Schereschewsky lost to Harriet Bedell 63% to 37%. While he will be missed, those responsible for updating their church's poster-sized brackets will rejoice. Harriet will go on to face Thomas Gallaudet in the next round.
We recently heard a rumor that there are still some people who have not liked us on Facebook or followed us on Twitter. That seems impossible. In any case, it's time to vote between a heart "strangely warmed" and a "strange palpitation of the heart." If you find your own heart beating too fast with this heart-thumping saintly action, please call your cardiologist. The Supreme Executive Committee is of limited help in such matters of the heart.
John Wesley
It may not be completely fair to call John Wesley an overachiever, but he provides good reasons for making that case. An excellent student, John attended Christ Church, Oxford, where he and his brother Charles established the Holy Club. They were mockingly called the Methodists because they were so methodical about church attendance, Bible study, prayer, and service to the poor.
After they were ordained as Anglican priests, the Wesleys went to the primitive colony of Georgia where they failed to impress anyone, and John managed to get sued for breach of contract by his sort-of former fiancée. John came back to England utterly downcast.
While in the New World, John had become friends with Moravian missionaries. It was while attending a Moravian service in Aldersgate that John felt his heart “strangely warmed,” and he gained a new understanding of God’s grace. It is out of this Aldersgate experience that John rebooted his ministry.
He used his remarkable organizational skills to establish Methodist societies within the Church of England, though he was barred from preaching in most churches due to his evangelistic methods. He often traveled more than 4,000 miles a year–250,000 miles during his lifetime. He preached over 40,000 sermons, mostly in the open air to working class people. He published 233 books, receiving over £30,000 in royalties, most of which he gave to charity, including funds to establish the Kingswood School in Bristol.
Although he remained an Anglican priest throughout his life and did not intend to found a new denomination, his ordination of two lay preachers set the stage for the split of Methodism from the established Church of England.
He continued preaching until days before his death at age 88 in 1791.
Collect for John Wesley
Lord God, who inspired your servant John Wesley with burning zeal for the sanctification of souls, and endowed him with eloquence in speech and song: Kindle in your Church, we entreat you, such fervor, that those whose faith has cooled may be warmed, and those who have not known Christ may turn to him and be saved; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.
Charles Wesley
Charles Wesley was the younger of the famed Wesley Brothers, whose Methodist revival changed the shape of religion in eighteenth-century England. Charles was among the greatest hymn writers of all time, with over 6,000 hymns written during his ministry. Among his texts are such beloved hymns as “O For a Thousand Tongues to Sing,” “Love Divine, All Loves Excelling,” “Come Thou Long Expected Jesus,” “Lo! He Comes with Clouds Descending,” and “Hark! The Herald Angels Sing.” While often eclipsed by his elder brother, Charles Wesley was described by those who knew him as a “man made for friendship.”
Charles attended Christ Church, Oxford, where he and John gathered with close friends for regular communion, religious study, and prayer. Because of the group’s fastidious and structured habits, they were snidely called “Methodists” by their peers; the name stuck. Anyway, Charles was ordained in 1735 before going to serve as a missionary in the colony of Georgia, where he would preach and minister while also serving as the secretary to the colony’s governor. Charles found life in Georgia difficult and was often caught in the crossfire of his parishioners’ feuds; he returned to England after three years.
Charles experienced an inner conversion on Pentecost Sunday, May 21, 1738, at the home of the English Moravian John Bray. He described it as a “strange palpitation of the heart,” in which he gained the confidence and assurance of Jesus’ great love for him. His brother John’s famous Aldersgate experience would come three days later. The brothers would then go on to preach and proclaim that experience to all in England, especially in fields, factories, and under-churched populations.
As Methodism grew and experienced pressure from within to separate from the Church of England, Charles Wesley remained fiercely committed to avoiding schism from the church, which he lovingly called “the old ship.” Charles consistently and vehemently opposed any steps his brother John took which he saw as possibly leading to schism. Charles was not informed of John’s ordinations of Asbury and Coke in 1784 until after the fact, primarily to prevent him from intervening. On his deathbed, he wrote to the local vicar, saying: “Sir, whatever the world may say of me, I have lived, and I die, a member of the Church of England. I pray you to bury me in your churchyard.”
Collect for Charles Wesley
Lord God, who inspired your servant Charles Wesley with burning zeal for the sanctification of souls, and endowed them with eloquence in speech and song: Kindle in your Church, we entreat you, such fervor, that those whose faith has cooled may be warmed, and those who have not known Christ may turn to him and be saved; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.
-- David Sibley
Vote!
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221 comments on “John Wesley vs. Charles Wesley”
My heart is always strangely warmed by the music that Charles gave us. Hence, he has my vote.
Was told long ago that J&C's Mom used to brew beer for the returning missionaries coming for R&R...hope it is true as the roads were quite dusty in those days...
Susanna Wesley was a powerful Christian witness in her own right.
What? The mother of Methodism brewed beer? 🙂
What a dilemma...particularly as an alumna of DrewTheological School (Methodist - even though I am a cradle Episcopalian...for generations; go figure)! I was all ready to vote for John and then I read the biographies. Charles' hymns are certainly some of the best, and ultimately I like the fact that he was able to find a way to keep his experience of renewal within "the old ship" and use it for the Church's good. I voted for Charles.
Well, poor John! Seems all the musicians are voting, but few of the theologians. Charles also wrote some stinkers, folks, and John also wrote hymns and translated many German Pietist hymns. Charles didn't like lay preachers, either, but they were the backbone of the movement. Plus, Susanna (the mom) thought Charles was wrong about that. Obviously, some of our Anglican friends must be unfamiliar with the "sermons" as theological instruction in the manner of the Anglican Divines of the 17th Century, JW's model for his "Sermons upon Several Occasions." And as for those "irregular" ordinations, they came after the Bishop of London refused both JW's and Fr. Seabury's requests for sending ordained priests to the new United States. JW acted out of practical necessity, a hallmark of Wesleyan theology; Seabury had to find some Anglican Non-Juror bishops to ordain him. I vote for John.
As one of those musicians, I think I mentioned that John wrote/translated some hymns too. And I also recognize that not all of Charles' hymns as well. My point was that there was a difference in the output in that area. "Jesus, Thy Blood and Righteousness" is an old German hymn translated by John Wesley. As a German Lutheran it is a favorite of mine. But still Charles was more prolific in this area. As a Lutheran, my decision was not based on their theology -- though I am sure they were both faithful Christians -- but the music is more important to me. However, both of them are on the Lutheran Calendar as "Renewers of the Church", Mar. 2nd is their feast/ commemoration day on our calendar. So I don't discount the Wesley brothers' role in the church either. I recognize the truth of your statement, but this Lutheran musician voted for the more prolific brother as a hymnwriter, Charles, not because I mistakenly thought he alone was involved in writing hymns! I knew better!
If the aim of lent madness is to educate us about the saints then it worked for me today. Difficult call but I am going with John--unlike most of the people who are voting for Charles I do not find music or hymns important to my worship experience, and usually attend services where no or minimal music is involved. Also, John went with his heart as to what needed to change in the church, and even though he didn't set out to start a new denomination, if filled and continued to fill a need for some people. Charles reminds me of people who believe in unity at all costs. They both though, are quite deserving if the his they already wear.
Having grown up in a small North Carolina town, I had opportunities to be quite ecumenical. Baptized AMEZ as an infant and confirmed as an Episcopalian at age 13 while playing at Baptist and Presbyterian churches and my own little St. Philip's Mission (on a pump organ at age 12), Wesley's hymns are ingrained to my very core! Charles it is + I am Deacon at the Cathedral where the Dean's father is a noted Charles Wesley aficiando, soloist, scholar, and Methodist clergyman...gotta be loyal!
From the United Methodist Hymnal, as a footnote to the hymn Traveller Unknown, originally published as Wrestling Jacob:
John Wesley ended his obituary tribute to his brother Charles at the Methodist Conference in 1788. "His least praise was his talent for poetry: although Dr. [Isaac] Watts did not scruple to say that 'that single poem, Wrestling Jacob, was worth all the verses he himself had written." A little over two weeks after his brother's death, John Wesley tried to teach the hymn at Bolton, but broke down when he came to the lines "my company before is gone and I am left alone with thee."
Oh, that's shattering! Thanks--I'd totally forgotten about this hymn,and I love it so very dearly. It makes me weep, too!
Can't believe I never heard--never even heard OF--this hymn, in 50+ years of singing in the Episcopal Church (plus 3 years at a Methodist seminary--shame on you, Candler)!!! And there are TWO settings in our 1982 hymnal!!! And I love the story of Jacob and the angel and would dearly have loved to have Charles Wesley's beautiful insight when last I preached on it...it was a pretty good sermon, but this would have made it so much better!
Thanks, Corey. You've made my day.
Hark the Herald Angels Sing and a "man made for friendship." How do you top that? Easy choice today. Charles.
Went in planning to vote for whichever one was the hymn writer (I know, I'm no student of history!) and came out the same way, though I learned a lot in the process. I did not know of their connection to the Moravians--now there's a church with some great music!
Gotta vote for Charles for his musical contributions and for his loyalty to the COE and avoidance of schism. Oh that the Anglican communion today would see him as a model and work out our differences rather than walk away from one another. There is plenty of room for all!
I cannot bear the thought of church without music! Gotta go with Charles... By the way, this my first year with LM and I am enjoying it immensely.
What do we remember about John Wesley?Duh-the Methodist Church?
I can respect votes for Charles but not those who denigrate the work of John
I have to vote for John - have not read a comment that points out that John took a very brave step in giving the lay members of the church more of a presence. As someone who is working to become a licensed lay preacher in a church that struggles 250+ later to balance the lay and ordained - I have to vote for John. Lots of hymnists out there, but not many John Wesleys.
As a choir member and a lover of our hymnal I had to vote for Charles
Having been raised a Methodist, I have a particular fondness for both brothers. Having lived through schism in the Episcopal Church, I vote for Charles for his willingness to hold the "ship" together, even though it he didn't always get the reforms he wanted.
Another tough choice, but for me the final piece was the music that Charles composed. So many wonderful memories.
It is my understanding that Charles did not compose music. I believe he was a poet, who wrote the words which were set to music composed by others. There are many hymns in the Episcopal Hymnal set to different tunes from those in the United Methodist Hymnal. I am not certain whether any of them are different for songs by Charles.
Going for the hymns -- "he who sings, prays twice."
Ah, this one is for little brothers everywhere! I am enjoying on so many levels the absolute trouncing that little Charles is putting on his big brother.
And Charles wrote some great hymns too. What's not to love?
I refuse to choose between the two. Both were crucial to the forming the DNA of the Wesleyan tradition. To choose one over the other is to think hierarchically and in polarities; both are too much of our societal way of thinking. Instead of voting for one over the other, I suggest adding several more--many who are unknown but extremely important to what continues to have a strong lay tradition.
OK, I live on Charles Wesley Court. How else do you expect me to vote?
Beyond that, as I have often remarked, I would almost always rather talk with a musician than a theologian.
Furthermore, John never left the Anglican communion though his actions led to the Methodist movement. And I'm a UM by accident of birth. Had I been born into another branch of the church family, I would have no less trouble disregarding the things I find disreputable in it than I do with the UMC.
Bottom line: my heart is more strangely warmed by Charles than John. I rather enjoy being triflingly employed some (if not much) of the time.
I came to today's vote with profound dread. How to choose? My heart was with Charles, I love his poetry, and I think it had a greater impact than some have been willing to admit. I looked at the trending, and decided to go with John. He deserves a much closer race than what is currently showing. Forgive me, musicians! Curse you, LM SEC!
The hymns....I had to go with the hymns.
Have to go with my favorite hymns. Charles' hymns always speak to me not only through the lyrics, but the melodies are heavenly.
It is questionable if John ordained anyone. It may be assumed that he was putting his hands on them to send them on their way to preach the Gospel. I doubt if he thought of it as ordination since he was an Anglican to the grave. I am not a Catholic, but Pope John XXIII said if he had not a Catholic he would have been a Methodist for his admiration of John's preaching the Gospel.
Let the congregation say "Amen."
You are correct. Francis Asbury was ordained by Thomas Coke, not by John Wesley.
Seems like once they got past their American misadventures, the lads played "tough cleric/nice cleric" very effectively. Passion doesn't always make you popular, as John shows today. Charles wins my vote with his kinder, gentler Wesleyness. A spoonful of music helps the Methodism go down.
I voted for Charles, of course, but I feel a bit sorry for John... I suspect is is going to be demolished by his "little" brother today.
Without John's evangelization, Charles' hymns might not have gotten the traction to be as loved as they are today. I'm a lifelong Methodist, and while I love to sing, my faith has been formed more by the theology of John, especially his heart for the poor. I vote for John!
Another hard choice. I'm become a great admirer of John Wesley as I've grown older. He was a great advocate of the poor and downtrodden that carried over to Methodism in the United States, in a greater way than in The Episcopal Church, at least until the last several decades. He was also a great sacramentalist, something I regret that Methodism lost fairly early on.
On the other hand, Charles wrote "Love divine, all loves excelling," one of the greatest hymns ever written and one that has been sung as the final hymn for every member of my family that has died. I cannot get through the final verse, not only because of the emotional history of the hymn, but because of the sheer beauty and great theology of the last verse:
"Finish then thy new creation;
pure and spotless let us be;
let us see thy great salvation
perfectly restored in thee:
changed from glory into glory,
till in heaven we take our place,
till we cast our crowns before thee,
lost in wonder, love, and praise."
I think my heart wins over my mind on this one.
Finish then thy new creation;
pure and spotless let us be;
let us see thy great salvation
perfectly restored in thee:
changed from glory into glory,
till in heaven we take our place,
till we cast our crowns before thee,
lost in wonder, love, and praise.
Didn't mean to quote the last verse twice. But the words are worth doing so!
If you haven't already, Elaine, track down a Methodist hymnal and read Charles's rules for singing in the front. They're hilarious.
Christina, you intrigued me so I had to look up the rules. I found John Wesley's Rules, but not Charles'. I did indeed enjoy reading them. I found them in several places, including here: http://zmhmusic.blogspot.com/2010/05/john-wesleys-rules-for-singing.html
As I've gotten older, I realize that the lyrics of great hymns are a treasure trove of theology. In fact reading just the lyrics in a hymn book is a lesson in the faith and beliefs of the writer and the church. When i sang in the Asbury Methodist Episcopal junior choir, the tune seemed to be the important thing. Now I treasure the words.
I am a singer and have been my whole life. I love many of Charles's hymns. It's just not church to me unless I'm singing, so I had to vote for Charles.
I love Charles Wesley's hymns and also the fact he stayed with the "old ship"